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SLAYDAWGS, CRAFT 2.0 +... and how they fit into competition

Discussion in 'The Sesh' started by furin, Dec 18, 2016.

  1. furin

    furin Member

    Joined:
    Oct 11, 2016
    Hey Ya'll! This is a topic that has been on my mind ever since slaydawgs were teased back about 6-7 months ago and now since KUSA has announced they will now be releasing the Craft 2.0 Plus (+), I figured now would be a good time to have a discussion and see what the community thinks about how these slightly bigger kendamas are going to effect the future of kendama competition.

    If you don't know already, The Slaydawg (KROM) & The newly released Kaizen Craft 2.0 Plus (KUSA) are premium kendamas that are about 5% bigger than a standard sized kendama. It's not much, but when you feel them in your hand you understand why these were made.

    Arguably the two biggest competitions in the world right now, KWC in Japan, and MKO in North America have similar methods to determining eligibility of kendamas for use in their competitions. There is a box that the kendama must fit in to be determined eligible for play. And as stated by both KROM & KUSA (and in real world application at the MKO) both of these slightly bigger kendamas will be eligible for play in the worlds biggest competitions. This box was initially made big enough by the creators of the KWC to fit a Mugen Musou, which is known to be ever so slightly bigger than a standard size kendama (I feel like most of that size increase is in the height of a Mugen Musou). Although I have not gotten all three of these Kendamas into a room together, it is of my opinion and speculation that the Craft Plus and the Slaydawg have a slight size advantage as compared to a Mugen Musou. Anyone feel free to correct me on any info I bring here.

    TL;DR: So with these new slightly bigger kendamas being allowed for competition use, what is everyone's opinions on this?
    Does it create an unfair advantage for players fortunate enough to have these kendamas? Does it not matter and skill will always trump a slightly bigger shape? Does it even create an advantage? My biggest question is, will more and more companies be forced to create slightly bigger kendamas for competition use? Is kendama moving towards a slightly bigger (and arguably more adult focused) shape as a whole?

    LMK THANKS
     
    Dec 18, 2016
  2. Mugen Mike

    Mugen Mike n00b

    Joined:
    Dec 4, 2016
    From what I understand (and please anyone chime in if I'm misinformed), the order of size goes like this:

    Slaydawg 2% larger ~ KUSA Craft Plus 5% larger ~ Terra LBB 8% larger. All are allowed in current competition standards but the Terra LBB, from what I understand. I feel like Krom has it mastered. Perfected in every way. Each edge and size difference makes sense and feels like it actually improves your play, but least feels like cheating or worse, imbalanced. The LBB I feel is, for the most part, imbalanced.

    I feel like getting consistent on anything bigger than 2% larger is going to be problematic and will require more adjusting than its worth. The new larger sizes are great for fun but for competition, its not a likely advantage because of the weight ratio difference. Slaydawgs dont actually feel like a larger kendama but the others, you can truly feel a big difference and you would have to hardcore adjust to that and that only if you were to use it to win a comp.

    If you are a good kendama player, you can slay anything. These damas make it easier to do more complex tricks.... none of which novice players are lacing anyways ^_^ not consistently at least.

    Thats my two cents!
     
    Last edited: Dec 18, 2016
    Dec 18, 2016
    Cheech_Sander likes this.
  3. lategreat808

    lategreat808 DS Legend

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    Dec 5, 2016
    Location:
    Tucson, AZ
    It would really only pose an unfair advantage if they were not available to other competitors. If someone had a slaydawg and no one else could get one then yeah, it would probably poise a slight advantage but all in all these kendamas are available to competitors across the board. It will always boil down to whether or not someone has found a kendama that fits to their play style and it has been honed to their trick list. If a player has a kendama that they like and it's broken in nicely, then I would say that's about as much of an advantage as there is. Krom makes some of the best kens out there but perhaps a natty ozora or a TK16 is what one particular player prefers and is most comfortable with. I feel each player will find the right ken for them.
     
    Dec 18, 2016
  4. furin

    furin Member

    Joined:
    Oct 11, 2016
    Does anyone have both a Slaydawg and a Craft Plus that they can take a picture of for comparison so we can all see?
     
    Dec 18, 2016
  5. htimSxelA

    htimSxelA Moderator Staff Member

    Joined:
    Sep 29, 2016
    Location:
    Vancouver
    Ever since Terra introduced the LBB, other companies have sloowly been jumping on board with slightly larger sized kens. KROM had the viking even a little before that, but I see that one more in the 'jumbo' category than the 'midsize' category. It seems like a lot of people in the industry are gravitating towards a midsize ken as their favourite (lots still swear by the standard size too though). From what I've seen, it seems like something a little smaller than the LBB is what people are centring around, I think the craft plus is a really really good product in this regard.

    To expand on what @Mugen Mike said, Slaydawgs aren't really a 'scaled up' version of a normal dama, since the cups diameters are increased wayy more than the other dimensions of the kendama (the tama is larger too though). So, I think '2% larger' is a decent description, but it doesn't tell the whole story. I compared the tamas of a slaydawg and a craft plus yesterday, and the plus is just sliiightly larger in diameter.
    Craft Plus is 5%. LBB is 10%. Both of these are a scaled up version of a standard sized kendama (I was involved in drawing the CAD files for both of these, so I know this is true with certainty).

    I'm not sure I understand, and I'm curious by what you mean here. Are you saying the LBB is large enough that it makes tricks too easy, and thus isn't legit for competition? Or that it isn't balanced in some way? Always interested to hear people's opinions, helps us to make the best kendamas possible!


    @furin there is another thread that is more or less on the same topic, I'll leave this one here for now though, since it is a more pointed question. Will maybe merge them if the replies start to overlap. Here's my reply to the other thread:

     
    Dec 18, 2016
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  6. htimSxelA

    htimSxelA Moderator Staff Member

    Joined:
    Sep 29, 2016
    Location:
    Vancouver
    On a side note... in some ways I think it is funny that larger kendamas are on the table at all. Back in the day, a kendama that had even slightly larger cups would be considered cheating/wack to try to film or compete with. These days its more of a race to see who can create the most playable shape possible!
     
    Dec 18, 2016
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  7. furin

    furin Member

    Joined:
    Oct 11, 2016
    It has definitely evolved a lot! But I mean it makes sense though.. Everything has to go somewhere. I'm sure you had the idea for the LBB because you believed that it would offer a different and maybe a more suitable experience for an adult player. Standard sizes are not bad at all, we all jam on them every day and it's never a bad experience but I can't help but have that inkling sometimes that what if the standard size was just 2%, 5%, or 10% bigger and how it would have better ergonomics for everyone.
     
    Dec 18, 2016
  8. Mugen Mike

    Mugen Mike n00b

    Joined:
    Dec 4, 2016
    I getcha alex. I was just saying that I personally feel on the LBB front, every ken I have ever received that was hardturned or traditional size had good all around balance and lunar, but I perosnally feel like LBB lunar potential on every dama Ive bought is lower. Perhaps its my luckl, but it would seem the sarado weight vs the general shape causes some issues with tipping easier. I love my terra, you gotta know this ;) <3 just my two cents. For the other part you mention of the tama being larger and cups being exaggerated, I suppose I understand more what you mean by that skewing the perspective of the dawgs being only 2% larger and therefore easier for tricks. I getcha
     
    Dec 18, 2016
  9. RyanArthurWalker

    RyanArthurWalker Slayer

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    Oct 11, 2016
    Location:
    Washington, DC
    I definitely think that a larger dama makes it easier to land certain tricks. Simply, because you have more surface area to use. However, as a grown man the bigger shape is much easier for me to use and feels way more natural in my hand. For competitions I think it needs to be debated and discussed at which point someone with a larger ken has an unfair advantage but right now everything seems to be very minimal to me.
     
    Dec 18, 2016
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  10. Ben Lowe

    Ben Lowe Slayer

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    Oct 11, 2016
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    Port Angeles, WA
    I would kindly request that all kendama companies just send me whatever upscaled kendama they have so I can do a comprehensive analysis and comparison and inform the community. Completely selfless request I assure you. *cough* ;)
     
    Dec 18, 2016
  11. Dæmon

    Dæmon Moderator Staff Member

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    Sep 26, 2016
    Location:
    The Ether
    White people are 5% larger than Asians and therefore should be considered cheating.
     
    Dec 19, 2016
  12. damon

    damon Slayer

    Joined:
    Oct 13, 2016
    Location:
    Salt Lake City
    I've thought about this as well, and I eventually got around to comparing it to paint. The player will pick whatever kendama they will compete the best with. Regardless of tack, size, weight, they will pick the kendama they feel the most comfortable playing. I've seen Cannon bust out nuttier tricks on a green oz than I've seen anyone else do on any kendama, no bigger cups or sticky paint needed. It all comes down to the player.

    Then again, take any kid stomping tricks on those damas and hand em a green oz, I'd imagine those tricks would all of a sudden become a lot harder.
     
    Dec 19, 2016
  13. azleonhart

    azleonhart Moderator Staff Member

    Joined:
    Oct 12, 2016
    Location:
    Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia
    The flipside of the argument is that JKA has set the standard for a "normal" sized kendama aeons ago.
    This is a time where people didn't care much about ergonomics and just wanted to play kendama.
    Sorta got carried over to today, i suppose.

    We've seen now that people are more naturally adjusted to the 2% increment, so the real question here is : was 2% the actual standard all along?
     
    Dec 19, 2016
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  14. furin

    furin Member

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    Oct 11, 2016
    this is good insight!
     
    Dec 19, 2016
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  15. htimSxelA

    htimSxelA Moderator Staff Member

    Joined:
    Sep 29, 2016
    Location:
    Vancouver
    Yea, thats pretty much exactly it. The largest userbase for the 'standard' size: Japanese school kids. The LBB was basically designed for the average N American player.

    If you check out the history section of GLOKEN's website, they have the following quote:

    ------------
    *S-type; the dawn of the competition models

    In these circumstances, Tokyo Kendama Club was settled in 1968 by kendama lovers who enjoyed playing kendama deeply and also developed advanced tricks. The leader was a researcher of kendama, also designed and kept modifying its shape with wood craftsmen. The first prototype model for competition was made in Miyagi in 1976.

    On the other hand, Japan Kendama Association (JKA), established in 1975, asked the designer of S-type kendama to produce JKA model in 1977.

    According to the designer, JKA models such as old-Fuji or old-Sakura were modeled on S-17 type. At the time, ken(handle) was designed to be 16.8cm height, however, JKA members measured its shortened ken, the JKA model was made at the height of 16cm.
    ---------------

    So, pre-JKA damas were also a little bigger in size. Interesting stuff!
     
    Dec 20, 2016
  16. furin

    furin Member

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    Oct 11, 2016
    WOW that's very very interesting.
     
    Dec 20, 2016
  17. Ryalkid20

    Ryalkid20 Honed Member

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    Oct 12, 2016
    Could you put a standard sized tama (ball) on a slaydawg Ken (handle)?
     
    Dec 20, 2016
  18. furin

    furin Member

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    Oct 11, 2016
    prob! might be a little weird
     
    Dec 20, 2016
  19. Ryalkid20

    Ryalkid20 Honed Member

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    Oct 12, 2016
    Ya I like standard sized better but i never played a slaydawg or a plus but I think that if in the events you can use what they say you can use. Like if you like to compete with LBBs then make sure that KWC and MKO approve then you know you can start using those and start practicing with those type of Damas. I hope that we still stick with standards because you can customize your setup as with LBBs and slaydawgs and Sol flows you can't really customize it you are stuck with what you got
     
    Dec 20, 2016
  20. Steezdiaz

    Steezdiaz Slayer

    Joined:
    Nov 1, 2016
    Location:
    Chico, CA
    Down for this. Keep changing things until something just sticks, becomes the new standard, players will get better and better because of it (hopefully).
     
    Dec 20, 2016
    furin likes this.